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	<title>Comments on: Blunt Instruments</title>
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	<link>http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2008/04/blunt-instruments/</link>
	<description>A weblog dedicated to educating the community on security threats that matter</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Interesting Bits - April 28th, 2008 &#171; Infosec Ramblings</title>
		<link>http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2008/04/blunt-instruments/#comment-107097</link>
		<dc:creator>Interesting Bits - April 28th, 2008 &#171; Infosec Ramblings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asert.arbornetworks.com/?p=235#comment-107097</guid>
		<description>[...] Blunt Instruments [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Blunt Instruments [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dirtywerx</title>
		<link>http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2008/04/blunt-instruments/#comment-105692</link>
		<dc:creator>dirtywerx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asert.arbornetworks.com/?p=235#comment-105692</guid>
		<description>Keep in mind that not only must the inline device be 10G by-directional full-duplex TODAY, it must also be 40G next month and 100G by end of year. It also must be less than 1 RU in size for multiple 10G full-duplex links and suck almost no power. In some folks minds it must also be able to perform full sonet or ethernet test suites (loopbacks near and far-end, BERT testing, signal quality enhancement/levelling, optical power adjustments, multiple wavelengths...)... On, and if you drop one in a Verizon or ATT POP it probably also has to be 48VDC and NEBS3 compliant.

Also, it probably has to be cheaper than the cost for more links/bandwidth such that increased costs related to this set of devices (knowing that optimally these are deployed at every cable-head-end or DSL subscriber facing interface) is below the other options available. It must also not impact the end-user pricing.

It's a tough road to hoe...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind that not only must the inline device be 10G by-directional full-duplex TODAY, it must also be 40G next month and 100G by end of year. It also must be less than 1 RU in size for multiple 10G full-duplex links and suck almost no power. In some folks minds it must also be able to perform full sonet or ethernet test suites (loopbacks near and far-end, BERT testing, signal quality enhancement/levelling, optical power adjustments, multiple wavelengths&#8230;)&#8230; On, and if you drop one in a Verizon or ATT POP it probably also has to be 48VDC and NEBS3 compliant.</p>
<p>Also, it probably has to be cheaper than the cost for more links/bandwidth such that increased costs related to this set of devices (knowing that optimally these are deployed at every cable-head-end or DSL subscriber facing interface) is below the other options available. It must also not impact the end-user pricing.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a tough road to hoe&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: rawsome</title>
		<link>http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2008/04/blunt-instruments/#comment-105686</link>
		<dc:creator>rawsome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asert.arbornetworks.com/?p=235#comment-105686</guid>
		<description>While the review on in path/out of path deployment models are good, I think most people would have thought the “blunt means" statement to more represent the effect of dropping/blocking/resetting all p2p communications. It wasn't done in times of congestion or resource contention, or as limited means of traffic management to alleviate suddenly overcapacity links, but as a policy across the whole consumer base. 

One question that I've been wondering from the out-of-path deployment model, how do you identify what's a p2p session? Trying to identify via port numbers would seem to cause false positives and miss non-standard/http tunneled traffic (as was reported in this case, with lotus notes users being unable to pass traffic). Blocking any sessions that are long/large in size would seem to cause a lot of collateral damage too (hello Windows service packs!).

There's also a question - how harmful can resetting one session be - when there doesn't seem to be any evidence that's what they were doing. From what I've read, rst packets were spoofed/flooded on all sessions. Also - how effective really would a p2p blocking system be that only stopped one out of hundreds of sessions? I'd want my money back if I paid for a solution that that was the best it could do.

Right now I'm downloading, via bittorrent, Ubuntu 8.04. It was released today and all the public mirrors are down. This is pretty much the only way for me to get it, and it's working very well. I'd be quick to switch providers if I suddenly lost this ability - but many consumers don't have a choice in high-speed ISPs.

Looking at this example - it seems there's not a net sum difference between in the total bandwidth used between 100k people all downloading a file via http, and the same number redistributing it between themselves via p2p. One just seems much more fault tolerant and effective at handling these types of sudden large popular files.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the review on in path/out of path deployment models are good, I think most people would have thought the “blunt means&#8221; statement to more represent the effect of dropping/blocking/resetting all p2p communications. It wasn&#8217;t done in times of congestion or resource contention, or as limited means of traffic management to alleviate suddenly overcapacity links, but as a policy across the whole consumer base. </p>
<p>One question that I&#8217;ve been wondering from the out-of-path deployment model, how do you identify what&#8217;s a p2p session? Trying to identify via port numbers would seem to cause false positives and miss non-standard/http tunneled traffic (as was reported in this case, with lotus notes users being unable to pass traffic). Blocking any sessions that are long/large in size would seem to cause a lot of collateral damage too (hello Windows service packs!).</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also a question - how harmful can resetting one session be - when there doesn&#8217;t seem to be any evidence that&#8217;s what they were doing. From what I&#8217;ve read, rst packets were spoofed/flooded on all sessions. Also - how effective really would a p2p blocking system be that only stopped one out of hundreds of sessions? I&#8217;d want my money back if I paid for a solution that that was the best it could do.</p>
<p>Right now I&#8217;m downloading, via bittorrent, Ubuntu 8.04. It was released today and all the public mirrors are down. This is pretty much the only way for me to get it, and it&#8217;s working very well. I&#8217;d be quick to switch providers if I suddenly lost this ability - but many consumers don&#8217;t have a choice in high-speed ISPs.</p>
<p>Looking at this example - it seems there&#8217;s not a net sum difference between in the total bandwidth used between 100k people all downloading a file via http, and the same number redistributing it between themselves via p2p. One just seems much more fault tolerant and effective at handling these types of sudden large popular files.</p>
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